0:11
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Slumber Party podcast. I am your co host Amanda Jewson. I am asleep expert, I help your babies and children sleep. And we have our other co hosts Lisa Amrhein, BFF mom of three Wonder Woman, general hilarious human. And today, our guest is I had Did you like that intro? Lisa? Yeah, that was a good one. Did you like that was right on. We're getting into it. Now we're getting into the groove. Today we have our guests, Margo and Margo wrote in and she had such a wonderful little note that I said, we have to absolutely get her on the podcast. Because this is sort of my, this allows me if I'm being perfectly frank, this allows me to really showcase what I think about sleep and sleep training and whether or not you should do it. And is it a thing or not? Is it dangerous or not? Is it something every family should do or ought to do or plan to do? And they think that the answer is always like maybe. And so we're going to really break down this question. And we get it so much that I hope this is a really helpful episode for anyone thinking are on the fence or you know, maybe you know what side you are on, but you've a friend kind of like oh, what should I do? What should I do? And you can kind of send this, send them this episode or listen to yourself and coach them in your own beautiful way. So welcome, Margo. How are you? Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you, thank you for being brave and writing. So tell me tell me what's going on. Tell me tell me all your problems. I mean, your sleep problems.
2:02
I'll keep them to sleep. So yeah, I'm I have a baby who will be on sold this week. She's my second but I also have a two and a half year old. And I know that kids are could be very different. So I won't belabor it, but my son you know, he he like was putting himself to sleep earlier. He had a pasty, he was very happy with that. And like, I think around the time he was four months old, I stopped helping him to sleep mostly because he clearly didn't want it anymore. Like he was like, go away, leave me alone. And I was like, if that's what you want, that's what I'll do. So I didn't seem fair to him. But five and a half months, he was doing a thing and he was sleeping like the magic 12 hours. So when we had this baby, we were like, we just have to wait till five and a half months and then everything will be magic. And here we are. And she's about to be eight months and everything is not magic. Things are just still like, you know, chugging along. So she's still she nurses asleep, which I didn't intend to do, but she never took a pasty or a bottle. And so despite all of my efforts, and many brands, so it was always kind of me. And around four months old, she she wasn't gaining weight, like super well, she's pretty petite. So I found like she was only really taking in a good feed as she was going to sleep and it was too hard to like fight her to wake up while she was relaxing and eating. So here we are. She's almost eight months. She's still nursing to sleep. I really like it. I don't mind it. It's sort of like, you know, a nice way to say good night. We were doing a dream feed for a bit but I found it was more disruptive. So I stopped doing that. She's not like the classic baby that I nursed to sleep and then she's waking up like every sleep cycle screaming for the boob. She sleeps in a crib. She's we don't closely like we're like it's working ish. But I found especially over the last few months, a few weeks sorry, and I think it's months in baby time. Everything is days, weeks. But she she started to like crawl, sit up, pull the stand. Babble a lot more like she's all over the place. Super alert. And all of a sudden she's up at 2am for like an hour and a half even though her naps are good. And then now it's been sort of pushed later and later so she can make it to almost 4am from like her 7am bedtime, but then she's up for like an hour and a half and then we're like, is she even going back to sleep? Is this even happening? She needs me to nurse her. Then my husband's rocking her then on nursing her again. And you're like this isn't working. And then the next day I'm nursing her to sleep and it's magic again and it takes five minutes and everything's great. So my husband and I I've been going back and forth on like, is this the problem? I think just because it's something that feels like I could change, but I don't really want to lose it if I don't have to, especially since it's sort of like my security blanket for getting milk into her. I tried tonight to rock her to sleep, nursing or just figuratively because I knew we were going to talk and I was like, Oh, give it a try. See what happened. And she was like, a little gremlin in the dark, like, crying at me. I was like, this is not going well. And so altogether, I would say, like, yes, she's waking up, she seems to want a full feed, but the feed isn't putting her back to sleep. And so I don't really know what she wants or what the problem is and how to give it to her. So I thought maybe, you know, people who don't know her might
5:51
get an outside opinion. I also love that you like, you essentially cram for the test. You're like, Hey, I'm gonna do a quick rocking. Oh, my gosh. You're like, I'm gonna do a quick rock. See how it goes? Nope. Didn't work. All right. I wanted to come in hot being late tonight. We did.
Really click look good. I did look good. I did. Okay.
6:18
And then the last thing I'll say is that, you know, you live in a small house. And I think we have a little bit more tolerance for my son fussing because it was just us and I could just No, it would be fine. But my son is very reactive to her crying and we get into if we do leave her to cry, which has happened occasionally if like, nothing's working. We get into like, what, what my husband I like to call the symphony of misery where they're just like, battling across rooms and screaming the loudest. And that's such a nightmare story to make. Now, now, here we are. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are.
6:57
Okay. Okay. Um, I this is helpful. There was a question that I had when we were talking about just your does your son, I know like this, there is a method to this madness. Did your son need any assistance to fall asleep? Now? Do you have to sit with him or pat him or anything?
7:19
It's so interesting, you know, until the baby was born, he would go to bed with his posse and no issues over the last like. So just about a month before the baby was born, he would before he was even to started refusing his naps. And we've been in a slow transition out of napping. So he's, he won't, he won't nap at home. But he'll now but school obviously for like two hours, has enough at home in six months. And so we had some routines that we started to try to do to get him to nap which didn't work. But now those have sort of like, bled into bedtime. And so now he he likes a little background here and there, but that's like the most he's ever needed. We took his we took his posse away when he lived, but at a mental Yeah.
8:06
Okay. Okay. Okay, this is helpful. I'm gonna circle back to that there is a method to this. Lisa, this tree, before you jump into my suggestions, it kind of reminds me of your situation with your youngest, right, because I'm gonna circle I'm gonna link all of this. So this is how my wild brain works, that I have so many things that I want to talk about. But now I have to like figure out where to start. So I'm just going to start with, so they're okay. When when I'm thinking about the question is like, what's the problem? Or, you know, is this a problem? I guess we could even say, when, when a client is calling to do a discovery call with us, we're looking actively for the behavior to sleep. And we actually do get clients who call and they're like, No, we there is nothing, we put the child into bed. And you know, they fall asleep, and this is x y Zed, so then it's probably a timing issue or food issue or whatever. But I would say 9.99 out of 10. There is some behavioral assistance to sleep now, and why why do I tell him I know that Margo, you've listen to the podcasts already. But I know that some people will be picking up this podcast today. For the first time. I'm going to recommend that everyone go back to season one, episode two, where I talk about the four month regression is shit. Regardless of the age of your baby. I do break down what is happening behaviorally. I'm going to do a little version of that here. But essentially, sleep is behavioral. Right? And a lot of it is behavioral. You're going to have like your son, those buta babies. You can maybe give them the passie or some families rock, some families straight up feed to sleep or bottles, whatever, those babies sleep for 12 hours, and we don't have to worry about those babies, right. Like, that's just what happens. And I believe that your little one, Liza did that for a long time as well. Now, for many clients, it can be confusing because that works for a long time some it works years. For others, it does have a shelf life on on in terms of like how effective that is. Then we have to think about okay, so then when we have helped to sleep quite often the wakings are due to the fact that the child just wants to do what they did to fall asleep in the first place. Right? So okay, I'm nursing to sleep, this feels great, perfect. And as as your baby gets older, they're going to be like, Hey, I'm awake. Because everyone wakes several times, like four to six times a night, we all wake, some of those wakings are going to be
more there, there's going to be more alertness or awareness in the wakings versus others. So or in and I get clients who say to me all the time, look, or naps are perfect. It's just the night there can't be asleep Association. But if there is something that the child is waking for, that happens consistently every night, when they wake, that alone can be enough to put a little stick in the mud of your perfect night. Right. So okay, we've established that it very well could be a behavioral thing that she is waking for. The other thing that can happen as well, and you've alluded to this is that everything stops working. So you're like nursing padding, rocking. But the fact of the matter is for many of our clients, not for everyone, for many of our clients, we don't deal with the super chill easy babies, like they don't really come across our desk, right, we get the more spirited aware, like Smar like being like, Okay, if something is happening, I want the whole show, I'm going to do a nurse, I'm going to get dad to come in to do some rocking, that's cool, then I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do that. And then wow, this is pretty awesome. We start we see babies after seven months developing likes, dislikes, preferences, things they like to do. So I keep referring back to Liza in this case, because I remember, I was like, Look, I've done this before. You just had a baby, I want you to know that. I don't care how your baby sleeps. You don't have to talk to me or like confess anything. I don't care. If things ever become a problem, I can help you. And then so I remember there was a time where we went over. And I came over and I was going to help you do some nap training. And we tried for five minutes. And you were like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And then we just stopped. And then we're like, Okay, let's move on. until you were ready. And it was time. Right? Yeah. Because really what it comes down to Marco, is, is this affecting your life in any way? Because you said a couple of things to me already. Number one, you said, I'm a little bit nervous about the amount of food that she's taking. So that's going to play into this, especially if she's petite. And you've been told to watch her weight. I'll counter that by saying we see a lot of small babies gain weight after sleep training, because their feeding becomes more efficient during the day due to awareness. And if they're not like their fish, their, their feedings become more efficient due to the fact that they're not falling asleep right after, right. So that that can be a concern that we can mitigate. However, it might play into your your ability to follow through, right? Because if you're like, oh my god, what if she's hungry, and you're like, This is a great way for me to get those extra calories then. Okay. Then you said, I like this. It's a great way. I like it when it works. Well, yeah. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna break it all down. If you like it and you want to continue it, then we have to acknowledge the part of our brain that will tell us that what we're doing is wrong when we really want to do something, or we feel like it's the right thing to do. So it has to be, we have to get down to you and your partner deciding, listen, is this worth the fact that our kid is going to cry when we change the behavior for three days? Do we want to do it? Is it impacting our life to the point where we're not enjoying bedtime? We're exhausted. We're not showing up as parents. We're not being our vessels and then I'm snapping at the oldest. I'm Do you know what I mean? Like, if you're not there yet, I doubt I could give you like a free service and like we're because you forever and you won't do it, or you'll sabotage it because you don't really want to do
15:05
well. And then I'm remembering the reason I was so reluctant to baby to sleep train her, especially for naps was because I'm like, That's what gets me out of the house. That's what gets me out walking, right. So it's like it was an it was a convenient and convenience. Like it kind of fit into my lifestyle, even though maybe I wish some days should be a better sleeper. So, yeah, that makes sense to me.
15:32
Well, I do. I think what I want, like in my heart of hearts is for her to reach the point on her own where she no longer wants to nurse to sleep, I think. Because I had this experience with my son, where he at some point very clearly no longer wanted our intervention. My feeling is, you know, as a mother, I will support her as best I can until she's ready to be done. But now Now I'm staring down the barrel of like, what if that happens when she's three? What if I'm up all night with, you know, so there's a lot of what ifs, but like, now, I think it's more or less manageable. But but the early morning wakings are brutal. And I'm not sure that they're connected to the, you know, in the last week, like I would say she was up between 530 and six for the day, maybe five of seven days, which is very hard. So is that because of the nursing to sleep is that because she's having some kind of progression? I think I'm just hesitant to let go of the nursing to sleep. And then what if we're still in the situation, and then I lost my meal ticket to put her to bed, which I do you know, for two naps a day and bedtime. Like because I'm on mat leave, like it would take away from what I'm currently using to mostly work. Sometimes I seem to sleep and I pull her off and she screams and I'm like, This isn't working. But then the next time it worked, but I'm like maybe?
16:54
Well, yeah, I think that I do sound like I'm trying to convince you to sleep train. But what I would say to that is when you let's say you do take away like this really effective strategy that is working, that we would be replacing that with a strategy that would literally have you say, okay, like, the crying doesn't last. That's the other thing. This is like, ideally, when you're doing it, right, it shouldn't go on for a huge amount of time. It then you just get to a point where you say, Okay, I love you Good night. And then you put the baby down, and she does the work. And I just actually had a client that I'm working with this week. And part of their concerns were these like crazy early morning waking. So they were like, we have to rock her to sleep. And then she's up at 530 screaming no matter what. So we've never seen snow working with them. We haven't seen an early morning in about nine days now. And so the parent was like, Why? Why is it so easy? And it's literally because she has the skills to make herself feel drowsy and good now all the time. So that goes into like early mornings, naps, etc. Would you say that this kind of these early mornings, or this like fussing is is relatively How long has it been going on for?
18:19
It's been going on for two to three weeks about I emailed you? And I think it has it the it has coincided with her being able to crawl and go from setting to crawling, setting and setting to crawling and also getting her to bottom teeth.
18:44
So yeah, that's a lot of change. Yeah. Like all at once. Right. Yeah. And so then I think that that could be a sign of development. But I would say develop. So yeah, this, this brings up another point where people ask me, Should I wait until the regression is over, or this period of development or this leap, and then they'll be in a better spot, and then I can sleep train. But unfortunately, if you're helping to sleep, you may not ever know when that period of development ends, because it just means that they're smarter in that period of development. So they might actually wake up more, and then it might we might be accidentally introducing more things, right. So it could be a period of development. But I would say if it goes on longer than like maybe two more weeks or a week, it's probably not related to development anymore. And that's another question. We get a lot.
19:40
Yeah, it used to be that I would nurse her a night and she would fall back asleep while I was nursing her and I'd be like this makes sense. I nursed you to sleep. You needed a feed I noticed you again you're asleep. It's all magic. Yeah, I don't mind waking up once possibly even twice a night dinner so baby when I'm nursing. Yeah, you know, but but i That's why I don't understand Why she's not going to sleep after I know, sir. I'm like, I gave you the bed. She's clearly hungry, you know, like good food. So now what do we do? And then we're just kind of looking at each other like, well now what is
20:12
in my experience, and again, we're still in a short phase where this is only been two weeks. Here's my piece of advice.
20:19
I'm
20:24
we're both trying to like, I don't want you to feel pressured. So I'm backing off but and then you're like, what? Like, we're doing a funny dance right now. But actually
20:34
got I got into your podcast because I called my friend who sleep trained and I was like, this isn't working and she was like, You should apply to anyway, but she you know, when you call the friends that you want the the advice that you know you're gonna get from so this I originally got connected with you because I called my friend who did sleep train both are kids and I was like, hell
20:54
did she use us? Or does she just like listen to the podcast? I think
20:58
she did her own plan. And amazing on it. It all sort of worked.
21:03
Yay. Did you hear that? Everybody? This is a podcast that is very valuable share with everybody, you know, it's your friend. So what I will say to that then is okay, if we do get to a point where where people say why doesn't the the help to sleep work? And that's usually because, in my opinion, the most effective way to sleep is when it's internalized. It's a set of skills that are all on your own, and I see it all the time. We're where clients go from, okay, I'm nursing. Okay, I don't want to nurse I'm going to bottle feed Oh, that's not working. What about a pacifier? Okay, that's not working, bouncing, okay, that's not working. cosleeping. And then it's like, okay, literally nothing works. So I don't know what to do anymore. And then all of a sudden, the baby learns how to do it. And they're like, Okay, thanks. Again, we have to peel this back to the point of Do you want to do it? Is it going to be worth it for you? And Liza, you're such a good. Like, even when it came to like, not even nap training? You didn't do it forever? And then you did it? What was your turning point for you?
22:17
I was done with exercise? Uh, well, you know, I think like, just, it was one of those things, right? Like it was working until it wasn't and it was when it really stopped working, it became so glaringly obvious and, and, you know, I have older children, like, just like, you know, my son, my, my sons are like six and eight years older than my daughter. So just in the summer was coming up, and I just could see how our entire schedule revolved around the baby napping, right? And so her not napping would inevitably disrupt our evenings. And then I would get less time with the boys. And so sleep needed to become an extremely tight and predictable routine that we knew that she could sleep on the go, she could sleep at home, or we could, you know, leave her to sleep at home, and my husband could watch her and I would spend time with the older boys. So it became a necessity. And that was the thing, right? So when it was working for me, for her to sleep in the stroller, or for me to be out and doing those contact naps. That was working great. You know, and the boys were in school, it just it always, like I say, you know, in any discovery holiday do for you. With lots of our wonderful clients. I always say it's just whatever works for your family is what you really should be striving for. That's what it was. Yeah. Working.
23:44
Yeah. Yeah, I think I we're in that phase where you're like, I don't know if this is really working, I guess. I guess what I'm wondering is because I experienced that with my son where it was very led by him instead of by me. Like, does each kid have like their own internal timer of when they become developmentally ready to put themselves to bed? And I think the thing I'm going back and forth on is do I need to respect that she she will tell me when she's ready to go to sleep by herself at night. Are we there yet? And is that a thing that different kids reach at different times? And my son just happened to reach it earlier?
24:20
I think that he I do think that that does exist. It's I guess it's your patience with it. I think that it's hard for me to answer that question, because those clients don't call me but of course that exist that exists. And I think that you hear about it all the time, like you'll hear you know, I co slept and then one day, they just walked into my bed. They didn't want to do that anymore. And I do think that exists. But then I also deal with like five year olds who have literally never slept without their parents like and I deal with that all the time. So I think it's hard for me to answer that. I think it just depends on the child in front have you? And we have to say that, yes, we want to honor the child's. And we do want to give them an opportunity to kind of tell us when they're ready to do things, especially if you have the capacity and the time and the support. And it sounds like your partner is like all involved in this, which is great. But I think that very tired. Yeah, that was gonna be, I'm gonna come back to that. Well, in then I think, if you have that capacity, and you want to do that, you could wait and see. And she could be like, okay, now's the time. But it would also be really normal for kids not to do that. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. And they might just prefer or truly not know how to do this. So they're kind of asking for help. And you might be, you know, we might have to force that transition on them. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. I think if you have the capacity to wait, I think it's very possible that your child does that. It's also very possible that they don't in the timeline that works for you. Yeah, no, no, I mean, the other thing, too, I had a client once tell me that her parents, she co slept with their parents until she was quite a bit older, like in grade school. And one day, they sort of said, Enough is enough. And they like, put her in a room. And she was like, it was the most traumatic experience of my life. And she's like, I just want to do this now. So she doesn't remember. And that was like something that I was like, Ooh, okay. I mean, that being said, I don't think every methodology, let's be clear, involves just sticking your kid in the room being like, good luck. I'll see in the morning. If you were to work with me, that's not what we do. It's a lot more supportive and gradual and slow. So even if you wanted to change it at five, there are opportunities that are pretty supportive and loving.
27:01
Do you have people who try and then they're like, Okay, the baby's not ready. And then they put it on pause. And they try again, like in a few months or something?
27:09
All the time? Yeah. All the time. Yeah, it's some mother's friend. Mommies already? Exactly.
27:18
i Sorry. Go ahead, Amanda. Yeah,
27:22
no, sorry. I interrupted you. i But yes, it happens all the time. Yeah. I was how does your partner feel about it?
27:32
He, he's great. And that helped us do. Hell does. He just wants to do what is best for, for us. I mean, I think he feels really bad that she'd ever took a bottle. So he never got to help. And so I think now if I'm like, it's 530. And someone needs to be awake. She's clearly not going back to bed now. You know, he'll go do it, and he's helping you. And then when I was like, Maybe we should sleep train. He's very, he was like, Great, let's close the door and see her in the morning. And I was like, we're not doing very, like on board like that I think that's good. He's like me, he wants to help her. And we just don't really know how or if when we're dealing with is normal. And it requires like the normal parental patience that you need to expand in many areas of being a parent, or is this something that you know, is worth having a bit of a strategy for because we are doing that thing that I know you're not supposed to do? Which is three in the morning being like, what's our plan now? Because now three? And so I'm going to nursery for six minutes? And then are you going to go in at five minutes after I leave? Or I'm going to talk and then I'm like this is that like that? Just that we're doing that? So it wouldn't be better if that wasn't that that wasn't remaking the planet three in the morning you know for three every night in a row for three weeks. Like this is a problem No, this isn't a problem no this is normal. No, this is definitely a problem that we're doing that a lot you know it's very he's
29:03
literally done a commercial for when people say why should I pay you to do this? Like there we go. That's we've done it there's there it is. My answer if
29:16
there was any sleep training plan that would allow me to continue to sporadically nurse to sleep but since my assessment was that No, there isn't then I figured I just need to keep waiting.
29:25
There would be there would be so I would I always say like I if you're paying me money to help leave train your child. I won't do it half ass and I'm not going to feed you a bunch of bullshit. Okay, I'm not going to tell you that like rainbows and butterflies and unicorns are also going to come to your house, because that's a lie. I will tell you that after six months of were nursing it night, it almost always leads to confusion and more crying. And we don't really ever consolidate the night if there was an opportunity for parents to go in and nurse sporadically. here and there, or when they wanted to, or like randomly co sleep, of course, I would do that because I am not a monster, that I wouldn't be able to guarantee your level of success or consistency, which means every time you assist your child back to sleep or offer those sleep, crutches again, we're back, we are potentially back at square one, then we have to do more sleep training, when you don't want to do that, again, baby's gonna cry if we just took the word sleep training out. And we said, like, I gave your child their favorite thing in the world to sleep. And then I took it away for a long time. And then I gave it back one night, but then I took it away. Like, of course, there would be tears, of course, there's crying, right? So I would say, you're probably I would be very wary of those promising those sorts of results with those feeds. Because I just work with those clients after. So my my advice is actually if you just don't if you want to feed, then that's what you should do. Don't pay someone to do it half us just pay someone when you're ready, or or do it when you're ready not even pay someone do it when you're totally ready to remove those night feeds.
31:13
So like if she wakes up at 4am? Like, either don't respond or send him and to try to comfort her some other way?
31:21
Well, there would have to be I can't answer that exactly in the podcast, because I don't want all these parents to go and like stop feeding their like three month olds at night, which is not when I'm ready. Yeah, exactly. I think it needs you need to have an assessment with your doctor, especially because you've mentioned some weight issues, we have to think about calories, that that is what I do. If you don't want to work with a consultant, he then that's what your doctor can do with you. They can assess calories, weight gain curve, all of that stuff health of the baby. Once we've established that it's okay and safe to remove fields, then you have a couple of options on how you do that you can sit with her during the process, you can leave the room with checks. Either way, we recommend methodologies that have some form of intervention and connection with the child during the process. Okay, so my answer is, do what you want.
32:19
What I want is for her to sleep all by herself. I get up when everybody would want, right?
32:26
I would Yeah. And you know what, you? It might just happen, right? She's in a period of development. You can give it a little bit of wait time and you can see.
32:37
Do you the eight monthly progression real?
32:40
It is? Yeah. It's the leaps. They're all in there. Sorry.
32:46
What did you say? They're all real. All of the things. Yeah. And in because my son's
32:52
the Knights rely on. My son slept through the night for the first time at five and a half months. And he never woke up at night. ever again. Never. That's not wanting.
33:01
I mean, let's go into that. We're putting some big things out in the universe.
33:07
Yeah. Not every child is like that. Apparently. Now I'm learning. No, yeah.
33:14
Yeah. And I a lot of clients, a lot of like clients with their second kids are kind of in denial. They're like, No, it's just gonna get better like the first. So don't feel like it's anything or their third or fourth child for that better. Okay, like it goes on for maybe yes. Exactly, exactly. We're here. Well, we are at 33 minutes, which is not a bad nap. Not at about we're not at a bad time. So we are going to shut her down. Margo, thank you so much for being here and sharing that with us. I hope that was helpful, helpful assessments and things that you can ask your practitioner or your doctor or when you were interviewing the a consultant. These are the things that you can ask. Lisa, thank you for being a co host. And as always, folks, you can find out lots of tips and tricks on our Instagram at Babies best sleep. You can find Liza at BBs underscore Liza on Instagram. Follow us on the blog or YouTube and missing something. You can book a discovery call with Liza if you'd like to work with me. That's fine. She does my discovery calls because I'm manic in the background making. I don't know should sparkle. Alright, have a good one.
